Smash Mods

Another Rant


Ok well i think this issue really pisses me off the most because i dont know WHO the asshole is that decided on how to fix ice climbers. I understand that hey its Brawl+, hey its fun speed and bla bla bla. Thats cool, i respect that however i don't respect that you guys feel the need to butcher a character because of its playstyle.

Thats right i'm talking about Ice Climber's Chaingrab let me go over a little history in Brawl. You have to realize that the way matches were back in 2009 when people used to always pick metaknight and always time them out was because there was no way to fight ice climbers. The thought of 1 grab = 1 kill by itself absolutely frightened back to the point of asking to ban the character itself which i found retarded. 2010 rolls along over the past 2 weeks alone i've fought and seen people fight, Meep, Lain, Cheese and Atomsk's Icies pretty much the only Ice climbers right now in the United States who are able to keep up with the current metagame. Well just want to let you know in every match i've fought or seen them fight i have never seen them timed out once in fact the way you beat Ice Climbers is you seperate them.

Now you must be thinking, Oh Allied well they could easily beat each person by 1 grab. Not true at all, Do you understand how hard it is to get a grab against a well spaced anything from any of the top tiers in brawl? In fact half of the time i watched them lose each match, Boss a luigi player at MLG beat Cheese and Lain BACK TO BACK in losers. I mean if Luigi with by far THE WORST range can outspace and outplay ice climbers then why does everyone hate this play style so much are you guys afraid of trying?

"Well they are boring to watch?" Not true at all i don't know about you but everytime i see a grab happen everyone FREAKS OUT because it could potentially be a stock in fact it HYPES the crowd.

"Its a broken playstyle" What because you don't know how to space yourself its the same way as playing Kirby. Ice Climbers have a zero to death but the amount of time and practice you have to put in to MASTER that zero to death and apply it in tournament is UNREAL. IN FACT especially with shield stun and death to vBrawl Powershielding Ice Climbers can get seperated and pushed back 100x EASIER than the ever would in vbrawl.

A lot of people have to realize that the good reason why Ice Climbers in the first place were even good at grabbing in vBrawl was because powershielding was broken. You could have a perfectly space move still grabbed with a good timed Powershield. With that essentially nullified it ruins Ice Climbers game in general.

I think it adds more depth and the need to actually space your instead of you going Oh well i got grabbed. Ice Climbers chaingrabs now are 2008 style they won't work, its too hard and its hard to do it on the whole cast. Its simply TOO much effort to try with such a bad character anyway to learn the stupid Nana Fair or the Footstool chaingrab that you still nerfed anyway!?!? i mean come on.

Also another complaint is how are you guys going to Nerf Ice climbers to the ground, give every other character a speed bonus, combo buff, give ice climbers a few crappy attack strings and leave them RELATIVELY UNCHANGED. Thats like going around on your childs school bus taking away your 1 hand while the other children get a lolipop.

Anyway before i start with what i want from you guys i want you to also realize that no matter what Camping and Zoning is always going to be apart of any fighting game.

And i want you to realize its not a bad thing. Obviously not like vBrawl camping but its not a bad thing your minds have been destroyed by the image of vBrawl so badly that camping in general sickens you well i just want to let you know its a healthy part of every fighting game and does happen.

I do agree with the steps taken to minimize it but taking it out completely its retarded and unneeded and its about time it be said.

Theres nothing wrong with it.

TL;DR

Chaingrabs add depth and another Playstyle to this game of basic combos and its 10x harder than any of the combos even done in this game why are they taken out?

What are your thoughts of the chaingrab? Please be mature i don't want
"OWIJEF IT TAKES NO SKILL OMG THIS IS FUN SPEED AND BLA BLA BLA"

Why did you feel chaingrabs should be removed? I mean is it because you got gayed once and you don't wanna overcome the challenge come on lets be serious here?

Do you propose an alternative? Remember it can't be any big changes like give ice climbers a galato gun or some **** because were Gold now baby, Think Conservative.

What do you feel on Zoning and Camping not timing people out?

Post your thoughts.

---

Some concerns that i've gotten and answering on here.

Quote:An infinite, no matter how difficult it is to do, should be removed IMO. It goes along the lines of taking control away from the player which is something a game should avoid as much as possible. As for 0 to deaths in Brawl+, I dont know any of them but im sure they require a DI or tech read of some kind to complete.

The perfect read from a timed grab to grab takes way more skill and its not an infinite.

I would have to ask you to define infinite because you CAN get out of these grabs its called mashing theres nothing infinite about it. Slight changes are also up for debate the ice climbers are already a butchered character.

Quote:IF a chaingrab were to be put back with ICs, I would much prefer a Meleeesque chaingrab, where it is possible to DI out, buffer roll, do something. ICs still create many 0-deaths in Melee with them, but it is not guaranteed you can't do anything and sit there while I toss you between 2 characters and then smash you stupid. Just my thoughts.

I like this

Any more thoughts?

Removing infinites is a key goal of the game. Why? I'm going to take the most narrow argument for this right now, for the simple fact that any infinite is automatically a stalling technique that requires an artificial construct placed on the game in the form of the "all infinites end at 300% rule". I got rid of every infinite combo and stall I found in 7.0. That was pretty much my goal along with removing insane glitches like IC fusion. The ICs CG was looooong gone though as basically people started trying to kill it before I was even in the backroom (like over a year ago). Cape finally ended it with the no-grab Nana.

The ICs CG is something I think should be brought back into the game, but as a complex series of choices, based on DI, character choice, and incorporating AT LEAST 1 escape opportunity via tech chasing. They should be able to KO off a grab. It shouldn't be d-throw back-throw x10 to charged up-smash every time without fail. We can and should make IC grab rape more interesting than it is in vBrawl, but I agree that the current grab game is unacceptable.

(Yesterday 08:07 pm)Veril Wrote: [ -> ]If you want interesting and not completely inescapable CGs... uh... I can make those. I know everything about throw mechanics and manipulating throws since that was my initial area of expertise.

This is a pretty radical change, but its probably the ONLY major character change I would support because the initial changes combined with no-grab nana is soooo terrible that its pretty much enough to make IC mains vomit blood and cry little desynched rage tears.

As to it not being an infinite because you can mash out, that's not true. You can't mash out during the startup of a throw and the CG doesn't require at any point that you pummel long enough to allow for an escape even frame perfect trying to get out. It is an infinite.

(Yesterday 08:25 pm)Veril Wrote: [ -> ]Removing infinites is a key goal of the game. Why? I'm going to take the most narrow argument for this right now, for the simple fact that any infinite is automatically a stalling technique that requires an artificial construct placed on the game in the form of the "all infinites end at 300% rule". I got rid of every infinite combo and stall I found in 7.0. That was pretty much my goal along with removing insane glitches like IC fusion.

The ICs CG is something I think should be brought back into the game, but as a complex series of choices, based on DI, character choice, and incorporating AT LEAST 1 escape opportunity via tech chasing. They should be able to KO off a grab. It shouldn't be d-throw back-throw x10 to charged up-smash every time without fail. We can and should make IC grab rape more interesting than it is in vBrawl, but I agree that the current grab game is unacceptable.

(Yesterday 08:07 pm)Veril Wrote: [ -> ]If you want interesting and not completely inescapable CGs... uh... I can make those. I know everything about throw mechanics and manipulating throws since that was my initial area of expertise.

This is a pretty radical change, but its probably the ONLY major character change I would support because the initial changes combined with no-grab nana is soooo terrible that its pretty much enough to make IC mains vomit blood and cry little desynched rage tears.

Define infinite?

You can get out of Ice climbers grab its been proven even at high percent in about a second.

Also as ice Climbers players especially with such a vast amount of characters you have to master different types of chaingrabs its not all bthrow chaingrabs. Ask any ice climber main they would agree

If you can make up a new ice climber chaingrab go for it? post what you would do

melee ICs "chain grabs" would be perfect. not necessarily infinits, but attacks chained together through desyncing/DI prediction. i have no idea how you would implement that with brawls grab release mechanics, but i don know that the trajectories of the throws needs to be adjusted to compensate for the transition to B+. vBrawl their throws are designed that if you miss the re-grab the opponent is thrown from the attack and allowed to escape. in B+, nana has no grab, so every throw is essentially allowing the opponent to escape.

i will admit that when cape first approached me with the concept of replacing nana's grab with super armor/IASA frame, i was excited about the concept and enjoyed the gameplay. however, there have been a lot of changes since then and i've come to realize that i was wrong and this change takes MUCH more from them than what was needed.

melee chains are the way to go, i just have no idea how they would be done.

(Yesterday 08:31 pm)Allied Wrote: [ -> ]You can get out of Ice climbers grab its been proven even at high percent in about a second.

Also as ice Climbers players especially with such a vast amount of characters you have to master different types of chaingrabs its not all bthrow chaingrabs. Ask any ice climber main they would agree

If you can make up a new ice climber chaingrab go for it? post what you would do

I explained why it was an infinite in my last post, and you cannot actually escape. I'd like to see how it was proven that you can mash out when the IC isn't messing up, and who found that, since akaik that's not true.

Yes I can make up new IC CGs, but I need to know how far I can go with altering their throws from the B+ variant. Can I start working from their vBrawl throws? That would make it easier for me. Fair, blizzard, footstooling, jab, ice-block and bair will all be incorporated, as well as any other part of their moveset that is usable. Making jab-grab an effective true combo with a single IC would be part of this as well so I'll probably be messing with Jab a tiny bit. Possibly fair too because the tumble window on that is really significant and I don't know if it'll work right atm. As to on the spot theory-crafting throw design... no sorry, that takes weeks for something as complex as this, given that I'm gonna need to break down their throw game to such an extent that I can completely evaluate everything that occurs with a large cast and the ∂W throws the ICS have + them being totally unique.

The ICs are massively changed from vBrawl in a whole lot of ways other than the grab, so its not exactly like I'll be making them more alien to vBrawl ICs (moreso than they already are that is). I also did not recommend the d-throw changes that were put in place. That was done despite my recommendation otherwise.




Anyway, yeah, I need to know that I can work from the vBrawl throws instead of the B+ throws, and with a normal Nana. Is this acceptable to the group? Also I absolutely MUST have a coder working with me on this who will not flake out and knows the ICs. "looks at Frozen"

The worst feeling in any fighter is when there literally is nothing you can do to help yourself. This is even more so true in Smash. We are essentially spoiled by the ability to DI, SDI, tech(or not tech), Spot dodge, roll, or even airdodge. All are methods of escape and avoidance, and when none of them are applicable or given to you as an option, you feel cheated. In Smash, getting comboed is a 2 way deal. It requires your opponent to DI, SDI, tech, or not tech, and you to follow DI/SDI, tech chase, AND throw out the correct move. An example of this is when Brawl first came out. 2 Melee veterans were playing each other in tournament bracket, and one was getting infinited against the wall on Corneria by DDD. Mid match, the chaingrabbed individual, asked if there was anything he could do about it, and was told no. He then continued to put down his controller, cross his arms and watch until his stock was over.

Infinites are not fine in smash. 0-death opportunities are, as long as they are difficult to perform, and require some sort of DI/tech chase. Sheik was also labeled as 1 grab 1 stock in Melee because of her CGs on the majority of the cast, and perfect tech chases on fastfallers that lead 0-death. Sheik was able to cover every option, but it is difficult, and even harder to do in tournament. Pressure, nerves, etc. Point being, it is plausible, but people mess it up all the time even after Melee being out for how long?

I support some sort of CG, but not one where I can either mash the **** out of my nice controller, or put it down and wait patiently.

(Yesterday 08:37 pm)Veril Wrote: [ -> ]I explained why it was an infinite in my last post, and you cannot actually escape. I'd like to see how it was proven that you can mash out when the IC isn't messing up, and who found that, since akaik that's not true.

I don't understand why we can't reward Ice Climbers with a reward for doing something perfectly.

If you mash fast enough you can come out easily in higher percentages i was testing this with Atomsk its true and actually save you in early kills like if the Ice climber is charging a kill move you can mash out in .5 seconds it takes to avoid the kill move.

---

(Yesterday 08:40 pm)Bzoo Wrote: [ -> ]The worst feeling in any fighter is when there literally is nothing you can do to help yourself. This is even more so true in Smash. We are essentially spoiled by the ability to DI, SDI, tech(or not tech), Spot dodge, roll, or even airdodge. All are methods of escape and avoidance, and when none of them are applicable or given to you as an option, you feel cheated. In Smash, getting comboed is a 2 way deal. It requires your opponent to DI, SDI, tech, or not tech, and you to follow DI/SDI, tech chase, AND throw out the correct move. An example of this is when Brawl first came out. 2 Melee veterans were playing each other in tournament bracket, and one was getting infinited against the wall on Corneria by DDD. Mid match, the chaingrabbed individual, asked if there was anything he could do about it, and was told no. He then continued to put down his controller, cross his arms and watch until his stock was over.

Infinites are not fine in smash. 0-death opportunities are, as long as they are difficult to perform, and require some sort of DI/tech chase. Sheik was also labeled as 1 grab 1 stock in Melee because of her CGs on the majority of the cast, and perfect tech chases on fastfallers that lead 0-death. Sheik was able to cover every option, but it is difficult, and even harder to do in tournament. Pressure, nerves, etc. Point being, it is plausible, but people mess it up all the time even after Melee being out for how long?

I support some sort of CG, but not one where I can either mash the **** out of my nice controller, or put it down and wait patiently.

I like this

essentially its the same for ice climbers except 10x harder and the same problem with nerves, pressure and etc.

And whats wrong son i've gone through like 10 controllers this past year controllers don't last forever ;P

the problem with ICs current "chains" are that they require twice the effort to pull off, and give half the results. yes, they have good damage output, but they have poor range, laggy attacks, and a very vulnerable recovery/game (nana is even easier to desync in B+, so if you get her away she/you are ****ed).

removing nana's grab has proven to be the wrong course of action. i'll take some of the responsibility for that since i OK'd it initially. however, its no ok to leave it out. ICs are bottom tier in B+ for the same reason they aren't very good in vbrawl without them (i can play well without them, but its a hell of a lot harder).

(Yesterday 08:42 pm)Allied Wrote: [ -> ]I like this

essentially its the same for ice climbers except 10x harder and the same problem with nerves, pressure and etc.

And whats wrong son i've gone through like 10 controllers this past year controllers don't last forever ;P

Son, I have gone through like 5 without mashing in the last year, Melee is a hell of a game. Point is, I don't wanna have to be going through 15 because I used 10 to mash in Brawl, and 5 from generic Melee hitting a **** ton of buttons.

(Yesterday 08:45 pm)FroznHobo Wrote: [ -> ]the problem with ICs current "chains" are that they require twice the effort to pull off, and give half the results. yes, they have good damage output, but they have poor range, laggy attacks, and a very vulnerable recovery/game (nana is even easier to desync in B+, so if you get her away she/you are ****ed).

removing nana's grab has proven to be the wrong course of action. i'll take some of the responsibility for that since i OK'd it initially. however, its no ok to leave it out. ICs are bottom tier in B+ for the same reason they aren't very good in vbrawl without them (i can play well without them, but its a hell of a lot harder).

Ice Climbers moveset actually in regular brawl is Mid tier status that has been agreed on. The problem is Brawl+ everyone character can run laps around Ice Climbers now so they will remain bottom tier.

honestly with the chains that have been described to me why wouldn't i pick up a higher tier character thats 10x easier like Wario? People also need incentive to pick up Ice Climbers and have fun and alot of the reason why he was picked up in vBrawl was because He had excellent options vs metaknight and alot of the cast, a decent amount of counters and potentially could zero to death any character in the game with Good enough practice, muscle memory and skill in general.

I updated my post a whole bunch and like 5 showed up lol.

OK, I'm not gonna reiterate what I posted there. I will bring up a really big point that's been ignored completely: the ICs vBrawl CGs don't actually work as effectively with the B+ mechanics. Fall speed, hitstun, etc change how CGs function, and in the case of the ICs it made pretty much perfect CGs from vBrawl kinda iffy, though still possible. Like it made them sloppy but still effective.

VaNz made a cool video of unusual IC CGs in B+ a while back (when Nana had her grab still), if I can find it I'll link to it since some of the stuff in there I'd use as conceptual material for interesting CGs.


Anyway read my last post. S***s important lol


@Allied: being able to escape during a charging smash doesn't count as the CG being escapable. You don't HAVE to charge that smash if you just continue the CG till the point an uncharged smash will kill (and if performed right that doesn't offer the amount of frames needed to escape at a high%). Mashing only can produce so many inputs, the input requirement is based on %. Once the minimum window for the inputs goes under the startup for the smash it is doneskies (inescapable in any way)

well, in their current state, ICs are a close range character. they have no real approaches and their combos are highly dependent on the opponent being bad. i know dthrow, technically one of their combo starters, can be easily teched/DId so that you can't even start up the chain. same applies to squall. the only way the attack is viable as a combo move is when you start it right next to the person. its range gets beaten by just about every other move in the game, so approaching from mid/long will just get you punished/combo'd. once you can get in and hit them, though, you have some desync combo that can output a good amount of damage, but generally end with the opponent getting hit by an easily SDI'd attack, or simply hold away to escape.

the problem works like this: by equivalent fighting game standards, ICs are grapplers:bad at long range, but destroy people up close with their crazy grab game.

in B+ they have been left as grapple characters, but have no grab game. they defeat their own purpose...

(Yesterday 08:14 pm)Allied Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:An infinite, no matter how difficult it is to do, should be removed IMO. It goes along the lines of taking control away from the player which is something a game should avoid as much as possible. As for 0 to deaths in Brawl+, I dont know any of them but im sure they require a DI or tech read of some kind to complete.

The perfect read from a timed grab to grab takes way more skill and its not an infinite.

I would have to ask you to define infinite because you CAN get out of these grabs its called mashing theres nothing infinite about it. Slight changes are also up for debate the ice climbers are already a butchered character.

Infinite - In a fighting game, a technique or combo that would only end through player error instead of game mechanics preventing a continuation of that technique or combo.

I was basically saying, as long as there is something the other player can do to at least feel like he/she has some control (tech, DI etc...) the more acceptable it becomes. A zero to death that requires a read would be a good example. I like Bzoo's idea as well. A grab that you hope you can mash out of in time or die is not a good thing to have in.

I would also like to see where it is proven not to be an infinite if executed correctly.

Unfortunately, I dont know enough about the angles on the IC's throw or the ways the CG works on specific characters to give valid options for reinstating the CG in a way that would work.

However, the solution that B- has of the ice block after nana throws could still be dangerous. Have the frozen character be released very low to the ground allowing for follow ups from the IC's which would still lead to massive damage. Then you could also give them a killing throw.

What I want to know is how much you, as a group, want to allow me to alter the ICs grab game. We aren't actually voting on what changes to accept for a long while obv, but the amount of work this is going to require is pretty ridiculous if I'm going to make CGs that are:

1. intricate and cool to watch, ie a lot more involved than throw > regrab. This increases the complexity by a huge amount because you need to make sure the exact right combos exist in the exact right window on everyone. That is... very difficult to say the least. Especially if you want it perfect, which if I was designing it would really be the only option (geek pride, yo).

2. Have windows of execution that are tight but not humanly impossible. If something has different options on DI for example, that both lead into a regrab but requires commitment to some action that makes the other option non-feasible, I would try to keep the window for reading the DI as close to CRT as possible. This is basically quantifying the human element of execution and making it as difficult as possible without making it humanly impossible. Imo we should assume 13 frame CRT since these are IC players who need to have good timing and reactions to pull of a grab at all.

3. Escapable?: They should only be "semi" escapable, ie. there's a guaranteed tech chase (that also fits the above requirement #2). If we decide that a techable option is necessary either for some or all characters that means I need to redo some throw to allow for the pika-esque tech chase option (and not being pikachu will hurt this a lot lol). Since that wouldn't be used over a guarenteed option I would need to ensure a frame "gap" existed on each character where the tech throw option was required. >.>


So, I need to know that at least a majority of you are ok with this idea in theory before I attempt to work on this. I'm going to be working on IC CGs a lot with the smashlab for vBrawl, so this is the perfect opportunity for me to take advantage of unprecedented crossover knowledge since I'll be working with and training a few IC frame experts.


Basically this is the perfect time for me to do specifically this in terms of my other projects. But... support? And coder... I need at least 1 coder to produce the .pacs I want, preferably frozen since its his main.

(Yesterday 09:03 pm)Seris Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately, I dont know enough about the angles on the IC's throw or the ways the CG works on specific characters to give valid options for reinstating the CG in a way that would work.
...
Then you could also give them a killing throw.

The angles are malleable. I'll have to mess with the throws a LOT to get what I want.

A killing throw would help Popo but otherwise is pointless as per releasing/throwing into smashes.

Another thing we can look into is messing with the grab-box. That would possibly allow me to keep the throws more like vBrawl if I can like give the move more horizontal and less vertical range. Something to consider.


Frozen do you have an ICs visible hitbubble .pac by any chance?

Go for it, you already have my thumbs up as long as you stick to those requirements. The more "cool" ways you come up with to do the CG the better. You could also have multiple be used and have it be like, you have several CG options, and ways to get out of every one, so it really comes down to guess work/DI reads. If you do the "wrong" CG read/prediction, then a tech oportunity or buffer roll/spotdodge opportunity arises.

Im for reinstating them as long as they are escapable.

(Yesterday 10:54 pm)Veril Wrote: [ -> ]Frozen do you have an ICs visible hitbubble .pac by any chance?

you would ask for that right after i unsubscribed from the topic... i'll need to dig it up, but yes, there is one.

here you go: http://smash.everalert.net/downloads/Fit...e_v0.1.pac

Yay for bringing a character back from the brink of death.

I'd have no problem with reviving IC's grab game to an acceptable manner. I'm not really familiar with any specifics in regards to ICs though (other than there's TWO of 'em ).